Up: Martin Poulter > Scientology Criticism > UK Media Archive
[Narconon discussed on local radio]
Radio Guildford, 20 December 1997
From noscieno@my-dejanews.com Sun Jan 17 14:27:08 GMT 1999 [Note: the above mail address is a spamblock. Try "Thynkr"(america on line)] [Adapted from a transcript by Chris Owen, chriso@lutefisk.demon.co.uk Chris thanks Sol for the recording and help with the transcription.] The interview can be heard in streaming RealAudio from: http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/sound/narconon.ram And it can be downloaded for offline playing from: http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/sound/narconon.ra For more information about Narconon, see the critical web pages at: http://www.narconon-exposed.org/ PRESENTER: It was decided not to open a drugs helpline in the town this afternoon. Councillor Linda Strudwick says that when she agreed to officiate at the opening of the Narconon drugs helpline, she was unaware of the organisation's links with the Church of Scientology and controversy over its methods. Her office now says it will be doing more research on Narconon before agreeing to having any more official involvement. In a moment we'll be speaking to John Wood, who is the UK President of Narconon. First, though, our reporter Nicola Downs has been looking at the organisation. NICOLA DOWNS: Narconon describes itself as a totally drug-free, highly effective programme to rehabilitate drug or alcohol users and put them back in control of their lives. It uses methods developed by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Church of Scientology. The programme was first made available to the public in 1972 but since then its unusual and unconventional methods have caused concern and controversy. "Claire", who has asked to remain anonymous, took part in a Narconon project to give moral support to her boyfriend, who is addicted to heroin. She describes some of the methods used by Narconon to wean him off drugs: "CLAIRE": I know what Phil went through because I went through the same thing. Some of we were doing the things called "training your TRs", as they're called, where you sit and stare into somebody's eyes and you pass and fail things, and sometimes you're not allowed to speak, and there's another one called "TR Bullbait" where you sit and stare and people sort of hurl abuse at you or try to get you to grin or move. You're not support to react to noises, and sort of smacks close to your face and all sorts of things like that - you're not to react. NICOLA DOWNS: And she says she was surprised by some of the other methods used. "CLAIRE": They said that the - that Phil's drug abuse, and even things like me having injections in my mouth for my fillings, all of these things get taken into into our body and actually get trapped in the fat cells, and you have to go into this sauna, you go for half an hour's jog, you take lots of vitamins and minerals. You take these, you go out for a jog for half an hour, then you come back and sit in the sauna for four and a half hours. They say that the heat and the vitamins stimulate the things in your body and they come out of you. You just hope that you're going to survive it, but when you're with somebody who is so keen to feel like they want their life back and you'll just go through anything. And I was absolutely convinced that what they were telling me was true, that they were going to cure him. NICOLA DOWNS: John Garrows is a Professor of Human Nutrition who's head of the department at St Bart's Medical School in London. We asked him if in his opinion giving drug addicts doses of minerals and vitamins, as is described in Narconon's literature, and experienced by "Claire" and her boyfriend, would be effective in detoxifying them. JOHN GARROWS: On theoretical grounds I don't know any reason why the programme of drugs and exercise and saunas and so forth *should* be particularly effective, nor do I know of any trials in which they have compared their programme with anybody else's programme in a properly controlled manner i.e. starting with the same sort of people at the beginning.... NICOLA DOWNS: And forensic psychiatrist Dr. Elizabeth Tylden says she treated half a dozen people at her London practice suffering from what she sees as the ill-effects of the Narconon programme. DR TYLDEN: Some of the advice that they were given would be OK, but the programme hasn't been effective in the people who I've known who've tried to use it. I've come across people who've looked extremely ill. NICOLA DOWNS: One of the criticisms about Narconon that's been aired is that it's not sufficiently upfront about its links with Scientology. "Claire" says that she was positively encouraged by Narconon to go to the Scientology headquarters in East Grinstead for help in getting over her depression about her boyfriend's problem. "CLAIRE": It wasn't explained to me like that, that they - what happened was then Phil got quite ill and very stressed-out and I was getting very upset because I didn't know what was happening to him. I was told that there was a way that would help me and I kept saying to Sheila, "What is that way - ?", I said "Is it Narconon?" "No no no, it's not Narconon, but Narconon is quite similar," and I was sent to a man's house in East Grinstead. He was a member of the Church of Scientology and they have a special way of dealing with things. I was given a freebie of this certain way that they do things. NICOLA DOWNS: After several weeks on the Narconon programme, Claire's boyfriend went back to taking heroin and is currently in prison. The Narconon rehab clinic he attended is no longer open. In fact Narconon currently has no drug rehab clinics in the UK at all. Those who enrol must travel to Holland. PRESENTER: Well, that was our reporter, Nicola Downs, reporting there. And John Wood from Narconon joins me now. Good morning, John. JOHN WOOD: Good morning. PRESENTER: The first criticism contained in the report there that I've like to ask you about - in your leaflet, which I've got in front of me - "Give them the truth and they'll see the light" - the word Scientology doesn't appear at all. Why not? JOHN WOOD: Well, I really don't see why it should. I mean, Narconon is an effective drug rehabilitation centre. It is also an effective method of warning children about the dangers of drugs. Now, L. Ron Hubbard developed many techniques to overcome many of society's ills. There's a whole range of different solutions he's developed in society - and, uh - I don't see why every time his name is mentioned all of them should be mentioned next to it. PRESENTER: Well, just to pick you up on that at the moment, what were Mr. Hubbard's qualifications for this? JOHN WOOD: Well, he is an expert in I think 29 different fields. PRESENTER: Well, according to the Board of Mental Health in the State of Oklahoma, and this, admittedly, was in 1991, they said that they threw out the certification of Narconon purely because he had no professional qualifications and was not really fitted to quote on it. JOHN WOOD: Yeah, um you've got old information there. Your researchers didn't do their job properly. Can I just - Can I just start again? Listen: we are saving people's lives. Narconon is an effective drug rehabilitation centre. Now, what has happened here, right, is that controversy has been created by your researcher on purpose because that's his job. That's how he feels he gets his reward, by creating controversy. He has gone to - on that tape he has gone to people that are known - going to say something negative about this. How come he hasn't gone to - There are a hundred and forty thousand people in the world who say their lives have been saved thanks to Narconon. PRESENTER: Where has this research been published? JOHN WOOD: No, they're all over the world. The testimonials - Sorry, there's no doubt that Narconon is the most effective drug rehabilitation method in the world - PRESENTER: Where is the published research? JOHN WOOD: There are plenty of reports that have been conducted - PRESENTER: Like where, for example? JOHN WOOD: Well, how - Well, there have been tests done in Sweden, in Spain and various other - it was written up in the Journal of Toxicology. But the point is your researcher went out of his way to create controversy. PRESENTER: Well, this is your opportunity to tell - JOHN WOOD: Absolutely - Well, I would like to say I'm disgusted - (both talk at once) PRESENTER: You're not telling me where I can go to, an accredited body in *this* country which has scientific approval, to tell me that your Narconon is an effective treatment against drugs. JOHN WOOD: Well, the effective - the place to go is to meet the people - Why don't your researchers ever contact people that have done the programme? My own - my own friend, my best friend - I was at university with him at this university in the eighties, he was an alcoholic. He says his life was saved. He tells me himself his life was saved by drugs [sic]. He's a Guildford man who was injecting methadone for fourteen years. And he did the methodone - the uh Narconon - PRESENTER: I'm not suggesting that nobody's ever benefited from your programme, I'm saying that the fact that we do not seem to have any written evidence >from what people would recognise as a properly qualified clinical body in the United Kingdom to give you the full accreditation - (JOHN WOOD tries to interrupt) PRESENTER: - of an anti-narcotics agency. Why not? JOHN WOOD: It is not a clinical agency. It is not medical. That's the main reason. PRESENTER: So it's psychological? JOHN WOOD: No - I mean, when the centre operated in the UK, in Dover, and in Crowborough [near East Grinstead], we are authorised as a registered care home and we received funding from the Social Services for people to do the programme. And - If it was medical, we would have to be a nursing home, so I'm sorry but it's not a medical treatment. If you like to call it psychological, it basically deals with the reasons someone got involved in drugs in the first place - PRESENTER: All right - JOHN WOOD: - and helps them overcome it. PRESENTER: So you're saying people who deal with drugs , we know, are enormously vulnerable, and especially when you're getting them off it they go through all kinds of psychological dark shadows which are being brought out. Now, you say you're not medical and you're not psychiatric, so what qualifies you to do this? JOHN WOOD: Well - God! - we've got nothing to do with *psychiatry* - their practices are *dangerous*! They put people on - I mean listen to this - psychiatrists put people *on* an addictive substance that's more addictive than the drug they were taking in the first place. They replace heroin with methodone - PRESENTER: Now I have no medical qualifications so I can't argue with you on that. What I am saying is two things, and you still haven't answered my first question. Why is there no published research by an accredited body to the UK which says that Narconon is a proper agency doing a good job? JOHN WOOD: Well, there's no such report in the UK, however there are plenty of international ones - The thing is, Narconon is standard throughout the world. It's the same programme - the withdrawal programme, the sauna detoxification, as spoken about in that tape, and methods looking at the person's ethics, honesty - restoring - You see, the real issue here is drugs cause enormous destruction in society. I mean, you know, what are we talking about here? It's the parent's greatest fear, that their children get involved in drugs. Addicts are involved in crime, we're talking about robbery, we're talking about AIDS from needles - we're talking about - PRESENTER: Nobody's arguing about the drugs menace. What we're talking - It's not the subject we're discussing here. The subject we're discussing here is whether Narconon is an effective treatment for drugs or a front for the Scientology movement. JOHN WOOD: Oh, please. I mean - There are experts throughout the world - I could supply you - your researchers never even tried, they went out of their way to find only negative reports - PRESENTER: Can you give the names of any two agencies in this country that we could telephone and get official accreditation for Narconon? JOHN WOOD: Well, I don't really know what you mean by "official accreditation". PRESENTER: Well, I mean, for example the one I quoted - admittedly - from seven or eight years ago which says that certification was refused, this was the one in America - here we are, the Board of Mental Health for the State of Oklahoma - now, you must have, presumably, acceptances from people who are not the Board of Mental Health for the State of Oklahoma. JOHN WOOD: Oh, yes - well, you see now let me - this is going to be embarrassing for you, I'm afraid - but the thing you are talking about there - the Oklahoma Board of Mental Health - What actually happened was that psychiatrists that are controlling that, that run that mental health board, refused to give a licence to Narconon because their methods are ineffective, they were going to be embarrassed, their vested interests in their methadone treatments and all their - PRESENTER interrupts, both talk across each other JOHN WOOD: This is the truth. I'm telling you the truth here - PRESENTER: That's what they say - (Both speak together) JOHN WOOD: - No - Please - Can I - Give me a chance to answer the question. Thank you. Now, this was back in '91 or whatever it is and that was some very out of date information you've got there. Now, what happened after the licence was refused was that an organisation called CARF [Commission for Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities] - it is basically in America a five - If you get accreditation from the organisation CARF, which is a five-star organisation, and we have - it has - The accreditation from that is the best. It is the stamp of approval. After, given all of that, the Mental Health Board looked stupid and they gave a licence because they just - PRESENTER (interrupting): Are you saying it does now have a licence? JOHN WOOD: Absolutely. *Absolutely*. It is recognised by CARF and many others in the UK. PRESENTER: Do you have any documentary evidence of this? JOHN WOOD: I can give it to you with pleasure. It's in my car, I haven't actually got it with the things right here - I can give to you in a second. PRESENTER: I do apologise, you've given me a lot of anecdotal evidence, and that's something which is fine, except that - you must know this as a Scientologist yourself obviously - the Church of Scientology comes in for a fair amount of criticism, and I'm not saying that it's deserved or otherwise, I don't know anything about it. (WOOD in background: "Right.") What I am saying is - you must know that whatever you do is going to come into this - shouldn't you be belt-and-braces, copper- bottomed, absolutely solid gold with your research printed material before you go into any of this? JOHN WOOD: Well, I have a report that Jonathon never asked for, which is called "A briefing - (PRESENTER interrupts): Well hang on a minute - JOHN WOOD: - it has all the details there - PRESENTER: You're accusing our researcher of having it in for you - JOHN WOOD: Yeah. PRESENTER: - and yet you're saying you had a report which explains - JOHN WOOD: Which he never asked for - PRESENTER: - which you never - well - But why didn't you volunteer to give it to him? JOHN WOOD: Well, hell, he's the researcher. He's doing all the dirty work behind our back. I'm sorry, he never asked me. He could have gone to plenty of addicts - He could - PRESENTER: That's rather like somebody accused of burglary saying I never gave them an alibi because they never asked me for one. JOHN WOOD: Well, I didn't - I gave you the press release, you've got Scientology and all the details - All here (rustles paper). PRESENTER: I'd like to see that. JOHN WOOD: OK, it's completely there. It's talking about the Jive Aces, promoting the book "Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought". OK. He never called me and said, "Can I be introduced to someone who has done the programme - who's said it's saved my life", but - PRESENTER: We did - he did ask this agency in London everything they had on you - JOHN WOOD: Yeah but - PRESENTER: - and what we've got is basically all your own publications here, plus - there's also another one here, from the Ministry of Public Health of the Russian Federation, refusing certification to Narconon. JOHN WOOD: Let's update and - You know, he's purposefully gone out of his way to create controversy, which is inexcusable. We're working on this serious drug problem. There are, there - (PRESENTER and WOOD talk across each other briefly) PRESENTER: But if they haven't got all the information that's your fault for not telling them. JOHN WOOD: OK. Sure, OK. I admit - Sorry, I should have made sure that the agencies that he went to had all the latest information - they haven't. Thank you very much for pointing that out to me. The fact is - Look, locally here we have five percent of eleven-year-olds using cannabis. PRESENTER: This is not the issue, John. The issue is not drugs. The issue is (a) does Narconon work and (b) is it a front for Scientology? And you haven't answered either of those questions. JOHN WOOD: Yes, it does work, it's the most effective rehab in the world. PRESENTER: And is it a front for Scientology? JOHN WOOD: Look, uh - that is - that is irrelevant. Firstly - PRESENTER: I must take issue with you there. You are dealing with people, in sauna baths for hours at a time, who are at their most vulnerable, their most self-doubting, at their most desperate. You've got the opportunity to - I'm not suggesting that you do this, I'm saying that the opportunity would be there if you were to take it to put any thoughts you wanted into their minds. JOHN WOOD: Please - listen to this! - What Narconon really does, is take a person who is an addict. I'm talking about a life of crime, I'm talking about overdosing and AIDS and so on. It was - he has no choice. He is a slave to the drugs. He has to rob you, your house, my house, to survive, right? Narconon takes a person like that, restores his life, gives him honesty, gives him a life back, ability to work, no longer a burden on the taxpayer. That's fantastic. That is fantastic. You're actually giving a person his life back. PRESENTER: But once again, you still haven't - When will you be able to present us with hard, black-and-white evidence signed by someone in the Department of Health saying yes, Narconon is a good and effective treatment for drug rehabilitation and it has no strings of any other kind attached to it? When? JOHN WOOD: In about five minutes. It's in my boot. Do you want to hang on? PRESENTER: Well, we'll have to leave it there for the moment but, John, if you want to bring it in I'll certainly have a look at it. JOHN WOOD: Ah, uh I will. With pleasure. PRESENTER: Thank you very much indeed. That's John Wood, from Narconon - pulling the case - thank you very much for joining us. JOHN WOOD: Thank you. [END]
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