Scientology in the UK Media

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Right to Reply, the Studio Discussion

Transcribed by Lance S. Buckley

Participants:

Roger Bolton: Presenter

Heber Jentzsch: President of the Church of Scientology
Lorraine Bolger: (No post mentioned, any ideas?)

Angela Glaizer: Mother of Ex-Scientolgist
Gary Fry: Ex-Scientologist

Professor James Beckford: (One if ITC's research sources)

Transcript

Roger Bolton: "With me in the studio is Angela Glaizer who made that report, and a former Scientologist Gary Fry. Opposite them Heber Jentzsch President of the Church of Scientology International, Lorraine Bolger from the Church of Scientology in Britain and Professor James Beckford from whom the ITC commissioned their independant research. Professor Beckford, what did the ITC ask you to do?"

Professor James Beckford: "I was asked to consider the criteria that the ITC use in deciding who is a fit advertiser of religious products, if you wish, on television."

Roger Bolton: "And what was that criteria?"

Professor James Beckford: "There were a very long list of criteria. Many of them give us great difficulty. It is very difficult to decide whether a religious organisation meets the criteria or not. Among the most difficult I think, this is my personal view, is the question of whether a religious organisation's collective rites and observances are generally accesible to the public."

Roger Bolton: "So they're trying to.. I think they're trying to establish that the religion or cult is open, and doesn't seal people off. Is that right? Separate people off fromtheir families and others."

Professor James Beckford: "That may have been the intention behind the rule, I really don't know that, but I would make the point that it is very difficult to decide whether some mainstream Christian churches are accessible to the public. Many church doors are locked these days. Many house churches meet in private houses and are not accessible to the general public. So I think the criterion itself should be reconsidered."

Roger Bolton: "What sort of research did you do?"

Professor James Beckford: "Well I have been conducting research on new religious movements for about 28 years. I considered the research that I had done and the research that had been done by other people, in coming to my view."

Roger Bolton: "Can you tell us what you conclusions were?"

Professor James Beckford: "My report was written in confidence. I'm not going to go into the report in detail. What I can report, that on balance I felt, that the Church of Scientology met the criteria, as laid down in the ITC's advertising standards code."

Roger Bolton: "So we don't know, we can't find out, what research you did, who you talked to, from whom you took evidence."

Professor James Beckford: "I was asked to make a report in confidence using all the skills that I have and all the knowledge at my disposal. That is precisely what I did."

Roger Bolton: "Angela, what do you think of that, that you can't get access to the report?"

Angela Glaizer: "So what's open and honest about this? Why can't members of the public have access to this report? What is it in it that we can't, that can't be seen?"

Professor James Beckford: "There is nothing in it, in my view, that can't be seen. It is a report that is owned by the Independant Television Commission, not by me. I cannot reveal something that I wrote in confidence, that I was asked to submit in confidence. There is nothing suspicious, there's nothing underhand or sinister about this. It is just the ITC's procedure."

Roger Bolton: "So you're happy for it to be published if the ITC agree?"

Professor James Beckford: "Yes."

Roger Bolton: "Right, can I come across now to you Gary. Now if you'd had the oppertunity of giving evidence to the professor, what would you have told him were your main concerns about scientology?"

Gary Fry: "Well in my personal experience, scientology is incredibly destructive. Both in my own life, and in the life of my family. And I speak absolutely from personal experience."

Roger Bolton: "Is this heresay evidence professor? Would you consider it heresay evidence?"

Professor James Beckford: "It's one piece of evidence that I would like to put together with lots of other pieces of evidence, about people who have remained in the church, and people who have left the Church of Scientology without voicing the same criticisms, and the point of an objective research project is precisely to compare the research coming from the people who feel the church has damaged them and those who feel the church has not."

[Babbling as Heber Jentzsch tries to be heard..]

Roger Bolton To Heber Jentzsch: "I beg your pardon, just for a moment... [To Gary Fry] How exceptional is your case do you think? Are we dealing with 1 or 2, just 1 or 2 cases, or is there a substantial body of evidence?"

Gary Fry: "There are many people that I know personally, that have left scientology, and have been incredibly damaged, and their families too. And one thing I'd like to bear in mind for the professor, is that scientology teaches you, as a scientologist, to tell acceptable truths. Which in common day language are lies. And they teach you to lie for the good of scientology. So when you speak to a scientologist, and you say 'Tell me about scientology' they are allowed to lie for the good of it."

Roger Bolton: "Well let me put that specifically then to you sir..."

Heber Jentzsch: "You've covered about 15 points here..."
Roger Bolton: "Let me go through..."
Heber Jentzsch: "... and I havent't had a chance to respond to any of them."
Roger Bolton: "... can I put the first one to you ..."
Heber Jentzsch: "... let me deal..."

Roger Bolton: " ... The acceptable, the acceptable lie, or the acceptable truth. Do you tell people that?"

Heber Jentzsch: "No we do not."
Gary Fry: "That's a lie. That's a lie my friend."
Heber Jentzsch: "This gentleman here [pointing to Gary Fry] has been... was ahh... he was, he paid a great deal of money which was taken from him wrongly, and I found out about that particular case and I don't know whether you know this, but that person was excommunicated from our church for that very precise reason."
Gary Fry: "They're still in it today. They're still in it today ..."
Heber Jentzsch: "She, that person, that person ..."
Gary Fry: "Still doing exactly the same thing"
Heber Jentzsch: " ... was excommunicated ..."
Roger Bolton: "Can I explain for our viewers.."
Heber Jentzsch: "Was the money returned to you?"
Roger Bolton: "well ..sorry ..can I explain ..."
Heber Jentzsch: "Was the money returned to you?"

Gary Fry: "Only after a year of court cases persuing scientology..."
Heber Jentzsch: "The money was returned to you ..."
Gary Fry: "... persuing scientology, and eventually to avoid ..."
Roger Bolton: "OK, let's just ... explain to our viewers ..."
Gary Fry: "...they paid it back."

Roger Bolton [To Heber Jentzsch]: "Let's just explain to our viewers that one of the concerns that people have about your organisation is that people do seem to end up giving a great deal of money to buy various forms of communications from you. I mean this is one of the concerns, constant concerns, that you are getting rich on people like over there.."

Heber Jentzsch: "We're the only church that returns money to people when they feel that's not what they wanted, and under certain conditions they do receive their money back. We're the only church that does so.

Angela Glaizer: "Not easily returned...
Heber Jentzsch: "But it is. and in the jewish tradition..
Angela Glaizer: "Not easily returned, you have to go through the courts
Heber Jentzsch: "In the jewish tradition or any other tradition they do not return any donations.
Angela Glaizer: "He said, we are talking about the church of scientology ...

Heber Jentzsch: "Well I understand, I'm just giving you the comparative of other religions. Now, let's go back to.. I mean .. heh, here's an ad about trust. Here's an ad saying, and there's a few people who are ... will be found to say something negative about scientology. And always we'll find people saying something negative about any religion in this world today. Lord knows there are many religions which are losing memberships all over the place. But scientology is growing, it is expanding, yes people pay money to scientology and.. the internal revenue service of the United States did the most extensive examination in history of our church. In fact this .. said to me .. Reverend Jentzsch, we've examined you back into the stone age. And .. unequivically found that scientology is a religion, established for religious purposes and charitable purposes for our secular organisations...

Roger Bolton: "But you are a rich organisation are you not?

Heber Jentzsch: "Oh I don't think we're as rich as others. We're only 8000,000 members, we're still 3000 organisations located in 115 countries we've grown, we've grown extensively but we've taken our money and poured it back into the establishment of those churches. We have some 38 different languages our books have been translated into, we've taken 100,000 people off of drugs, using our money to do so [AG: "Can I just..] which are not necassarily scientologists"
Angela Glaizer: "Can I take you up on that there [HJ: "Wait a minute"] 300,000 people have been taken off drugs [HJ: "100,000"] where, 100,000 people. Where is your scientif ic research to back up that claim? I do not believe it. If you can produce scientific research to back up that claim, then I will believe you. I ..[HJ: "And what will you do.."] I ..[HJ: "..if I give you scientific research.."] You listen to me. I think you would be [HJ: "..showing it's the most effective drug program in the world?"] I think you would be hard pressed to find one successful case [HJ: "Dr. Forrest Tennant has done full ..."] in this country."

Heber Jentzsch: "Dr. Forrest Tennant has done full examinations of this ..."
Angela Glaizer: "You give me the scientific research to back up your claims."

Roger Bolton: "Give us the information sir, we will examine it. Now let me bring in Lorraine here because another major concern of the, I think of people is that you seem, or the claim is that you almost prey on people who are very vunerable. And use a number of techniques which exploit them. This is the concern. Is that true?"

Heber Jentzsch: "That's trying to say that every person that comes into the church is vunerable. That's not necassarily true."

[Minor babble as Roger Bolton and Heber Jentzsch fight for control]

Roger Bolton: "Can I just let Lorraine..."

Lorraine Bolger: "Absolutely. Absolutely. I've been in scientology for 25 years I have 2 teenage boys. I grew up in a very normal Jewish household. I went to Goldsmith College, which is, as you know it's one of the top teacher training colleges in London. And I was, you know, a very intelligent mature woman when I came into scientology."

Roger Bolton: "Well I'm sure it's worked very well for you, but there are so many cases [HJ: "Would you call her vunerable?"] [AG: "In my opinion, scientology's targets are the young and the vunerable"] Sorry, no, beg your pardon, but [LB: "I was a professional .."] just let me finish the question [LB: "I was a professional teacher .."] can I just say madam that there are so many cases [LB: "...and I'm a more professional counsellor now."] but you see we keep coming, a lot of people keep coming up, saying that they have been exploited. A lot of parents come up telling us that their children have been exploited, why does this [LB: "Ok"] keep happening to [LB: "I absolutely understand"] your organisation?"

Lorraine Bolger: "Well let me just answer this. I spoke to my father last night. My father phoned me and he said to me, he's seen the advert, he thought it was wonderful, he said *mumble*(anyone know what was said?) in 25 years the only comment my father has made about scientology is 'Lorraine darling, if it makes you happy, I'm happy for you'"

Roger Bolton: "Well. Gary, will you tell me, what will you do then, if you want from now onwards, what do you intend to do, to try and stop this advertising?"

Gary Fry: "OK. Well the question was just now about religion, ok? True religion, the true virtues of religion are God first, your neighbour second, you last."

Heber Jentzsch: "From a Christian viewpoint."

Gary Fry: "OK? Religion from a scientology viewpoint is me first, others second, and God last."

Roger Bolton: "But what are you going to do, what are you going to do to try and top these ads going out?"

Gary Fry: "Tell the truth about scientology [AG: "And to lobby your MP"] about what really happens."

Roger Bolton: "Professor, can I come back to you at the end. You've seen the sort of level of emotion and dispute here. Do you think it would be beter if we went back to the situation before 1990 and stopped all religious advertising?"

Professor James Beckford: "I think what we need to recognise is that this country has changed it's religious composition. We no longer have religions that people take for granted. We have a religious marketplace. People are competing for a slice of the market. And that is why I think the advertising has to go with that particular religious change. It will give rise to lots of disputes. I have witnessed many such disputes, and they have a long history. And I don't think they are going to be resolved until the ITC reconsiders it criteria of what is a religion."

Roger Bolton: "Well I think if we have more religious advertising, we'll have more rows round this table. Thank you very much indeed."

[As Roger Bolton winds up the show, telling people to write or phone in, Heber Jentzsch can be heard in the background muttering "Scientology is the road to total freedom". As the credits roll, an agitated Heber Jentzsch can be seen stabbing a finger across the table in the direction of Angela Glaizer and Gary Fry]

[end]

Part 1 (Angela Glaizer Reports)