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BBC Newsnight. Aired 17th September 1996 BBC2 22:30.
(Part 2: The LIVE studio discussion)

Present

Transcript

Transcribed by Lance S. Buckley

[Sometimes many people are talking at once. In this case I will quote the primary speaker at that moment, and quote the others above and below the line without the normal blank line between them and in approximately the place where they belong in the conversation. If they are short interjections I will embed them using brackets [LB: "Like this"]. I don't want to miss out anything that was said, and also I think it will get across some of the short bursts of chaos that broke out while Heber was trying to monopolise the air time. I don't think he quite realised that this is not a tabloid TV news show. It is watched by movers, shakers and cogniscenti, who won't be fooled for a minute by his posturing and blustering. HJ likes to run his sentences together so people don't get a chance to talk. When this happens I will indicate it by using a ">" instead of a period to terminate the sentence. He seems to take most of his breaths when pausing as indicated by the commas. The previous disclaimer applies as to spelling and punctuation.]

[Cut from video introduction to PS at newsdesk]

Peter Snow: "Well that was Jeremy Vine reporting, and I'm joined again now by Heber Jentzsch who is president of the Church of Scientology."

[Cut to Heber Jentzsch striking a statesman-like pose for the camera. Behind him in the studio are large stills blown up from the commercial]

Peter Snow: "Why do you go to such extraordinary lengths to stop your message getting out?"

Heber Jentzsch (Surprised): "To stop our message from getting out?"

Peter Snow: "Yes. I mean all this litigation everywhere."
Heber Jentzsch: "Well no I think when your talking..."

Heber Jentzsch: "Well it's very little litigation internationally but by the way> This Internet issue is being resolved in the courts in the Unites States> The issue being that stolen copyrights are not allowed to be used on the internet> Netcom which is a major carrier, has made a ruling in the last few weeks saying that people may not steal, ah.. copyrighted information. We have made a breakthrough in that area> We've been the advance people who have had to deal with that issue, and now t here are many corporations, people who write books, people who have films, people who have records that are all available on the internet, are very happy that scientology are very happy that scientology is taking a lead in that. We've put out an ad here called "Trust". OK I think there are people who have disagreements and obviously a number of those people were expressing themselves earlier, a very small minority of people. But what you really find is that we must build those areas of communication> Mr. Hayworth and I have differences of opinion we both have different feelings about each other and about how we deal with each other and uh.. but I think it's important that trust be built. So here's an ad that's saying "let's do something in this world. Let's build a little better world for people, and scientologists around the world have put money into it> We've taken a [PS: "OK"] 100,000 people off of drugs is there something wrong with that? "

Peter Snow: "Let me go [HJ: "No sir"] let me go over [HJ: "I mean is there something wrong with that?"] well let me go, well let's ask. Let me go straight to, uh, to Ian Hayworth. You mentioned him just now. Ian Hayworth is, ah, runs the Cult Information Centre."

[PS turns to IH]

Peter Snow: "Now what's wrong with the cult of scientology and why shouldn't it advertise on television?"

[Cut to: Medium shot of IH]

Ian Hayworth: "Well Judge Latey in in 1984, ah.. described scientology as corrupt sinister and dangerous. Strong words for a judge, and um.. the concern I had at that time is the same concern I have today. I've been in this field 17 years, working full time on both sides of the Atlantic and for 17 years I've received calls of complaint about scientology. And I think to see an organisation that was once described in that way by judge Latey as corrupt sinister and dangerous, now gaining access to television commercials I think is rather extraordinary. And even a year ago I would have laughed at the suggestion that this might be happening. I think it's tragic."

Peter Snow:" Corrupt and dangerous, corrupt and dangerous. The words of a judge."


Heber Jentzsch: " This was not a ruling, this was a statement and not a ruling by the way, and in that particular case what happened was that the wife was trying to take over the children. She did take them and the result was 2 years ago she said "Look, the childran have turned into drug addicts. They have lost their capability to study" and sent them back, sent them back to the father and said "Use scientology resolve it." Now Mr. Hayworth and I, we do have a difference of opinion. I mean he's involved in promoting the kidnapping of people from families and so forth"


Ian Hayworth: "Now you know that's not true"

[General babbling, between IH and HJ over which PS tries to make himself heard]

Peter Snow: "Before we go over that let me bring in David Mellor, let me bring in David Mellor on the issue of advertising [background argument heating up] I'll get straight back to you on this"
Heber Jentzsch: "Let me finish one thing. Let me finish one more thing. [PS: "good"] I think [PS: "Very briefly, very briefly"] It's very important, Mr. uh.. Hayworth, that trust be developed. Because if there's distrust [IH: "There has to be a basis for trust, that does not exist"] We've never met, and you've said horrible things about my religion. I would defend to the death your right to have your religion. I don't know what is is but you have the right to have that religion, and I think it's important that other people also have that right."

Peter Snow: "OK. David Mellor, now you were responsible for the legislation that actually allowed religion to be advertised on television. Why are you unhappy that scientology should be advertised now?"

[Cut to: A sombre looking David Mellor]

David Mellor: "Well, I mean.. I was the minister who took the broadcasting act 1990 through the house of commons. There was quite a stong evangelical lobby in both houses who had influence with ministers more senior than me, who agreed it was appropriate to remove the restriction on religious advertising, I have to say that I was always rather suspicious of this. I think that rather naively those that campaigned for the change assumed it would be fairly bland British Christian messages that were put across. I'm afraid I rather more cynically, and being aware of America, religious television in America, alien cults like scientology, thought that would try and exploit this, and indeed there has been very little religious advertising on television in the 7 years since the act was passed, but now we have the scientolgists. I think it's a bad thing quite frankly, that their advertising is available, albeit on 2 very marginal satellite channels.

Peter Snow: "What, John Wadham, director of Liberty, do you think about this. I mean should there be limits on the kind of advertisements we should be subjected to on television?"

John Wadham: "Scientology may be crap... claptrap, but I mean the reality is it's for us to decide what we think about religions. It's for us to make out own decisions, our own mind up about that, and it's not for the state to intervene, to tell us what we should what we shouldn't see. I think that there's a basic right of freedom of expression that everyone must have and although there may be problems with scientology, those should be dealt with."

Ian Hayworth: "Scientology had been denied religious status in Britain for years and years. I think Lord Denning was one of the first people to make a very strong ruling and say "No, this can't be seen as a religion under any circumstances". Even if it was granted religious status at some point in time, surely religious freedom, should not become religious license to do anything in the name of one faith or another."


Heber Jentzsch: "Well if there are laws that are violated there are ways to deal with that, er.. Mr. Hayworth, and of course er.. er.. that is a situation where I think, again... scientology has done a great deal. We've taken 100,000 people off of drugs. How many people has your organisation, I don't know how many your church has done but I think it's great if your church has done that sort of thing> I don't know whether you take people off of drugs. We've restored over 2000,000 people's education."


Ian Hayworth: "What I'm involved in is handling the calls, picking up the pieces associated with families that call us [HJ: "Who pays you?"] because of the problems created by scientology [HJ: "Who pays you?"] and other organisations [HJ: "Who pays you?"] and a disproportionate number of the calls come from people like um.. that have been involved in scientology."
Heber Jentzsch: " Look I understand that you have obviously got... you have an obvious different viewpoint and uh.."
Ian Hayworth: "It's not a case of viewpoint. I represent thousands of people in Britain..."
Heber Jentzsch: " let me respond... let me respond to the good minister here for a second. Minister, regardless of how you may feel about my religion, I appreciate the fact that you [IH: "I'm not talking about a religious issue"] no I'm just talking about the minister here. I think, I.. appreciate the fact that you forged ahead, and you created a possibility for people to express themselves religiously. And I think it is a difference. Yes you may have problems with scientology. We've never met. I don't know what you ran into, but let me just say that again that's why trust is important, that's why you build trust, that's why communication is important. With a world that is falling apart, when I was at the united nations last year... "

[General babbling as everyone wants to be heard at once]

Peter Snow (voice raised): "Just before we end, David Mellor do you think there's any risk or danger around this event?"

David Mellor: "I've been hearing this deeply sinister person with a combination of soft blandishments and what appears to be underlying threats to those that don't like him. I bitterly regret that parliament took the decision that it did, and I personally think that if parliament had been aware that people like the scientologists would be the first to take advantage of this, parliament would change it's mind. And I don't think it would be many more appearances from people like him before parliament will consider this matter again."

Heber Jentzsch: "You have a right to your opinion, and I'm sorry we've never met, call me deeply sinister, I regret that you feel that way, but I think that every person has a right to be what they are and to express their religion and their religious belief."

Peter Snow: "We'll leave it there, thank you all very much."

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